Loopholes: We know they are watching

[md123]

Create an offshoot section the super secret water cooler, with real name criteria and personal references from one or 2 other known members (or IP/Vendors) on the board for verification. Anything that is to be discussed in detail and kept private can be done there.

This.

 

[JasonB]

Their lawyers can find the loopholes just as easily as we can. I think t is better to empower the citizens with the information to minimize the infringement for the time being until we can get some court rulings.

 

[balttigger]

 

[coinboy]

I've read the law and found a few very facinating loopholes. I am not a lawyer!

First and formost under the new legislation high capacity revolvers are still considered regulated firearms.

AR-15's with a push to start button are exempt from this legislation.

UZI's with a thumbhole stock and accept .50 BMG ammo are considered cash and carry.

Steel magazines with green followers are harder to obtain than plastic magazines with black followers.

An AK-47 with the booby trap forward grip is still legal in MD to possess after Oct, 1, 2013.

Any gun that was gold plated is still considered banned under the Assault pistol definition.

Assault rifles with strap thingy that goes up are still legal.

Finally, and most importantly, after October 1st, 2013, you WILL be able to purchase a FULLY AUTOMATIC FAWKING-47. However, a SEMI AUTOMATIC FAWKING-47 is banned. Try and figure that one out. I still can't!

 

[md123]

I'm surprised how many people think the grabbers wouldn't clamp down on what's left if it were brought to their attention.

I wasn't behind the scenes like MSI or some of the moderators here but from what I saw with my own two eyes at testimony/amendment days leads me to conclude that the only reason crumbs are left is because they are utterly illiterate when it comes to firearms. Kathleen Dumais said as much on Good Friday.

They know a lot of the activism was organized by MDS. They'll be back for more next time there is a tragedy and may look to this forum for "inspiration".

It's illogical to suggest that they would purposefully take all the heat we put on them for a hollow bill. Some of them will lose seats over this. I could see Harry Reid purposefully putting up something w/o teeth but we're in Marylandistan folks.



.

 

[kehvN]

Shops will do what they can when we get letters sent in to clarify MSP's interpretation of the law. Most of shops being scared comes from gray areas in the law I believe, clarify that and we won't have a problem.

That's the issue. The law is written in English, is it not?

The MSP is tasked with executing the law and, of course, they are ignorant government employees. You may get 100 different answers for the same question. When an official circular is posted it's also full of ambiguity.

This leads the risk averse FFL to process arms as regulated when they aren't. I had to defend a C&C when an FFL was about to process my transfer as regulated. This is inexcusable. I won't do business with them again.

We will never again have our liberty if we willingly place the power into the hands of the ignorant "decision makers." If MDers wouldn't have rolled over for so long and allowed these abuses... Well who knows. But it's ridiculous.

All of the veterans should understand this... when going to a senior NCO with an idea or request... never give them two options. Don't say, " Sergeant, shall I let my team go now, or shall I keep them all around until after the PSG meeting (which never ends before 1800)?" You don't use this approach because every time, without fail, they will say to stick around. If given two options, most people in the position of absolute power will make the worst decision.

If FFLs just processed arms which aren't regulated as non-regulated, how would the MSP ever know?

If FFLs submit non-regulated arms as regulated, is the MSP going to say, "oh no sir, this paper work isn't necessary." OF COURSE NOT!!

The solution to dealing with the "loopholes" is going to lie primarily with FFLs who decide that enough is enough. That published and signed legislation is black/white. The burden of proof is on the MD government.

I'm not afraid to buy, are you afraid to sell????

 

[trbon8r]

It's illogical to suggest that they would purposefully take all the heat we put on them for a hollow bill. Some of them will lose seats over this. I could see Harry Reid purposefully putting up something w/o teeth but we're in Marylandistan folks.

It's illogical to think the antis will ever act logically. They got their bill that shows they "did something" and that is all they care about. Even they know it won't do jack to prevent criminal activity. It's all smoke and mirrors and public perception. Now they can go back to the mouth breathers in their districts, declare victory and tell everyone how successful they were in getting "Weapons of War" off the streets. The last thing they are going to do is publicly admit they got punked.

 

[Arcamm]

I'm runnin out for utility knives at Home Depot right now !

I just paid $25 bucks for some blades that cost me $3.79 last week. Now I know why.

I discovered a loophole that will allow me have hair like teratos.

Group buy?

We're not going to limit discussion.

We're not going to hide discussion.

We're not going to have some secret squirrel members' only discussion.

The nature of a discussion forum is...well, discussion.

If they want to find so-called loopholes, they don't need us. They can find that anywhere on the net and they just make shit up anyway as anyone with even the most cursory of experience with Maryland gun law understands.

BTW, for anyone "watching" us....take a good look at this:

Are you saying they'll be no secret decoder rings?

 

[Brooklyn]

It's illogical to think the antis will ever act logically. They got their bill that shows they "did something" and that is all they care about. Even they know it won't do jack to prevent criminal activity. It's all smoke and mirrors and public perception. Now they can go back to the mouth breathers in their districts, declare victory and tell everyone how successful they were in getting "Weapons of War" off the streets. The last thing they are going to do is publicly admit they got punked.

Never underestimate the opposition. This is how we got in this fix.

 

[md123]

It's illogical to think the antis will ever act logically. They got their bill that shows they "did something" and that is all they care about. Even they know it won't do jack to prevent criminal activity. It's all smoke and mirrors and public perception. Now they can go back to the mouth breathers in their districts, declare victory and tell everyone how successful they were in getting "Weapons of War" off the streets. The last thing they are going to do is publicly admit they got punked.

I agree that they know it won't do jack to prevent criminal activity but that underscores my point. It's not about criminals, it's about getting at us. And things they learn here would be a wish list for next time there is a tragedy.

If all they wanted to do was "something", why the mandatory finger printing, fees, live fire training, etc? This was the year of "assault weapons", not handguns. Why did they sit through 14 hours of amendments, shooting each one down one after the other if all they wanted was a headline? They hate us more that we'll ever know.



.

 

[Brooklyn]

I agree that they know it won't do jack to prevent criminal activity but that underscores my point. It's not about criminals, it's about getting at us. And things they learn here would be a wish list for next time there is a tragedy.

If all they wanted to do was "something", why the mandatory finger printing, fees, live fire training, etc? This was the year of "assault weapons", not handguns. Why did they sit through 14 hours of amendments, shooting each one down one after the other if all they wanted was a headline? They hate us more that we'll ever know.



.

No, not quite.
We know how much they hate us-- They told us in the senate.
We are no longer fooled.
We are not afraid- We are on alert.

Year round fight.

2014

 

[Bolts Rock]

Laugh, it's already happened in the UK.

I was telling my lib brother I want a sword. He asked "you don't NEED a sword... I mean it's a weapon of WAR which has no purpose but to kill people!"

Well... I want a f***ing sword. The right to keep and bear arms includes sword... so I'll get one TYVM.



Si vis pacem para bellum

follow me @DiscipleofJMB

May I suggest Baltimore Knife & Sword? No business connection but I've known the guys for decades.

 

[Bolts Rock]

So, who wants to build a 32 pounder gatling carronade and mount it on a Peterbilt?

 

[Onequickfamilysedan]

Are FTF of unregulated long guns still allowed after Oct? Say a SKS?

SKS is banned under the new reg if it has a detachable mag

 

[Norton]

Never underestimate the opposition. This is how we got in this fix.

As demonstrated by those that told us that Delegate Dumais was on the fence. How did that work out for us?

 

[Torin]

That's the issue. The law is written in English, is it not?

The MSP is tasked with executing the law and, of course, they are ignorant government employees. You may get 100 different answers for the same question. When an official circular is posted it's also full of ambiguity.

This leads the risk averse FFL to process arms as regulated when they aren't. I had to defend a C&C when an FFL was about to process my transfer as regulated. This is inexcusable. I won't do business with them again.

We will never again have our liberty if we willingly place the power into the hands of the ignorant "decision makers." If MDers wouldn't have rolled over for so long and allowed these abuses... Well who knows. But it's ridiculous.

All of the veterans should understand this... when going to a senior NCO with an idea or request... never give them two options. Don't say, " Sergeant, shall I let my team go now, or shall I keep them all around until after the PSG meeting (which never ends before 1800)?" You don't use this approach because every time, without fail, they will say to stick around. If given two options, most people in the position of absolute power will make the worst decision.

If FFLs just processed arms which aren't regulated as non-regulated, how would the MSP ever know?

If FFLs submit non-regulated arms as regulated, is the MSP going to say, "oh no sir, this paper work isn't necessary." OF COURSE NOT!!

The solution to dealing with the "loopholes" is going to lie primarily with FFLs who decide that enough is enough. That published and signed legislation is black/white. The burden of proof is on the MD government.

I'm not afraid to buy, are you afraid to sell????

As the buyer, there doesn't appear to be much risk on your behalf. You buy a regulated weapon as unregulated, from an FFL, and what's going to happen to you? Nothing. Maybe you have to register it? Be the FFL and sell the regulated weapon as unregulated and what happens? Loss of license? Loss of business? Loss of livelihood?

I remember folks like that when I worked in the restaurant biz. "C'mon man! You can give me {insert item some jackpot doesn't want to pay for here} for free. It's not like it's costing you anything." Yeah..... But it's my job you're putting in danger. Then I'll be what? A story someone tells about "that messed up thing that happened to that guy "? No thanks. Sometimes folks have a hard time seeing anything besides what they want.

 

[Brooklyn]

As demonstrated by those that told us that Delegate Dumais was on the fence. How did that work out for us?

I am curious. What would we have done differently if we knew for a fact that Dumais could not be brought to our side?

Would we have stopped lobbying?
Would we have lobbied others more?

If we did all we could then we did all we could.

Maybe she played us. I know Brochin did.

But if we missed something we should have done let's learn from it. Personally I do not see it.

She fears mom and the machine more than she fears us. We need to prove we can effect elections. A narrow win on referendum will not do that. Challenging her in 2014 and falling to remove her will not do that. We must be sure to remove those we can.


I can see the spin machine we will face, I can see the press play in bits normal role. What I do not see is the voters of MD suddenly getting smart.

 

[Norton]

I am curious. What would we have done differently if we knew for a fact that Dumais could not be brought to our side?

Would we have stopped lobbying?
Would we have lobbied others more?

If we did all we could then we did all we could.

Maybe she played us. I know Brochin did.

But if we missed something we should have done let's learn from it. Personally I do not see it.

She fears mom and the machine more than she fears us. We need to prove we can effect elections. A narrow win on referendum will not do that. Challenging her in 2014 and falling to remove her will not do that. We must be sure to remove those we can.


I can see the spin machine we will face, I can see the press play in bits normal role. What I do not see is the voters of MD suddenly getting smart.

No, she reeled people in like a fish on a line.

My point being, people like to spend a lot of time hypothesizing and pontificating, yet show an abject lack of evaluating the obvious.

We are not going to operate this forum based on what "could" happen. We've already seen that doesn't work.

 

[kehvN]

My thoughts exactly.
These s are smarter than you think.
They leave the gray areas there on purpose.
They see the benefits as twofold.

First...It looks like they left us some scraps on purpose...looking out for our interests too, but leaving some room to tighten down later when the next event happens...probably with something like a fixed mag SKS. Then all semi-autos will said to be evil killers.

Second...The way they have scared the dealers into conservatism. First they tell them that they can cut loose firearms after the 7 days, then they come back when the wait times are up to 45 days, and tell the dealers NOT to do it. Even though this was one of the caveats made years ago, a promise no less by MSP, that the wait being to long would be preventing you from exercising a right, so it was OK to release them after 7 days. Why else do you think they put all the "I got my eyes on you" regs. about watching dealers, and record inspections, in this Bill? I had one WalMart try to make me fill out paperwork for a side lock BP rifle and another actual dealer for an 1871 Mauser, that uses obsolete BP cartridges. Both are non-firearms, per the ATF, and require no check or paperwork. This is where we have gotten to. It's also gotten to a point that manufacturers, importers and wholesalers won't even ship some legal models to Md due to our restrictive and constantly changing laws. They don't have to be any more restrictive. We are doing it to ourselves out of fear. Which accomplishes the mission as far as they are concerned.

Ummm... I'm pretty sure you're just making my same argument.

The point being, that we SHOULDN'T let them scare us. It's bad enough that we now have banned weapons, an infringment on our 2nd Amendment rights.

So what, the MD government has put provisions for record-keeping and audits. There's nothing to catch if the FFL is following the letter of the law!

 

[aray]

If there are legal opportunities to use, yet no one knows about them, well then they might as well be banned anyway. What good will they have done us?

Now that this year's GA is over, the next thing to do is not worry about what is in or was left out of SB 281, but instead build a filibuster-proof coalition in the Senate.

If Senator Middleton had not voted for cloture SB 281 would not have passed.
If Senator DeGrange had not voted for cloture SB 281 would not have passed.
If Senator Brochin had not lied to us and voted against SB 281 (specifically via cloture) with the portions he said he'd oppose SB 281 would not have passed.
And so on.

Folks you only need to flip a few select districts in 2014 and it won't matter how they try to beef up SB 281 next year - they won't be able to do it. That's the real goal where all of our attention needs to be focused now.