Polymer 80 Raided

[Nickberg500]

A few questions I think we need answered before SHTF:

1) If the ATF secures a warrant to confiscate one of these kits, which level of judge would they be getting it from (knowing if your judge is a bleeding heart liberal would be good to know)?

2) If the ATF shows up at your door, how many of us will tell them to pound sand? What are the ramifications of an ATF raid? How likely are they to get the warrant?

3) If one of us decides to hand over the kit, how satisfied do you think they would be with just the lower? If you had it all disassembled, would they demand every single part?

4) Is there any legal recourse, or preventative measure one of us could take? A reputable organization that would give legal protection? What if they secured the kit with a lawyer or third party?

 

[Sealion]

Here we go again.

No, he said that in the context of being in a room full of press and activists just hours after a disturbed person with a long history of being patted on the head by law enforcement shot up a school and killed a bunch of people. It was an off the cuff remark by a guy who's not a lawyer, not an expert on guns and crazy people, and who emotionally responded in exactly the same way YOU would if there was a crazy guy ranting and waving a gun around on the street outside your house: you'd want the cops to grab him, take the gun out of his hands, and THEN go through due process.

Name one tangible formal policy position, let alone actual action he's taken during his presidency that reinforces any sort of no-due-process on that front. Go for it.

As said by others, take him seriously, not literally. His opponents take him literally, but not seriously.

 

[Docster]

Their going after the "Buy Build Shoot" kits. Even going to END USERS (buyers) to recover kits As said previously, trying to establish these as firearms, not necessarily the frames alone for now.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/12/11/polymer80-kits/

 

[Snapper]

Kharn posted the statute up link, since the gun was sold as a kit, it qualifies for tax purposes as a firearm, where the 11 percent Pittman robertson excise tax needs to be collected.

Selling the 80 percent lower by itself, no harm no fowl.

I understand what you are saying, but why can one company sell the exact same products, shipped to you in one single box, and they (Glock Store for example) are not raided by the ATF? It is not logical.

Are you saying a company that sells 80% frames/lowers cannot also sell the other parts to finish the gun? They can only sell 80% frames/lowers and nothing else. They have to have complete separation from the sale of 80% frames/lowers and the parts to complete them?

Or, maybe they can sell them all -- all conveniently on the same webpage like the Glock Store-- but they can't say the word "kit". IOW, using the word "kit" suddenly makes their product illegal...or now taxable?

I hope and pray that our legal system doesn't punish a company for using the word "kit".

Google "Beer/wine making kit". The internet is full of sites that sell beer/wine making kits...and they use the word "kits" to market them...for us to make beer/wine for our own consumption.

Beer/wine are heavily regulated by the exact same ATF. However, they allow beer/wine making "kits," so why are gun making "kits" any different?

Just call me confused, pissed off at the ATF, and someone who just hates more government.

 

[Inigoes]

Or, maybe they can sell them all -- all conveniently on the same webpage like the Glock Store-- but they can't say the word "kit". IOW, using the word "kit" suddenly makes their product illegal...or now taxable?

I hope and pray that our legal system doesn't punish a company for using the word "kit".

When the word "kit" is being used, that is called marketing.

The vendor not paying the excise tax (Pittman-Robertson) is what got them raided. The ATF was/is fishing to get a number for taxes owed. The kit product is still legal...

Think of it as making alcohol for hand sanitizer, one does not have to pay the whiskey tax. When alcohol is made for consumption, the whiskey tax needs to be paid.

 

[JTH20]

When the word "kit" is being used, that is called marketing.

The vendor not paying the excise tax (Pittman-Robertson) is what got them raided. The ATF was/is fishing to get a number for taxes owed. The kit product is still legal...

Think of it as making alcohol for hand sanitizer, one does not have to pay the whiskey tax. When alcohol is made for consumption, the whiskey tax needs to be paid.

I'm not sure where you're getting the tax angle from. A CNN article on the raid claimed it's because the ATF determined the build kits were actually firearms. And that Polymer80 was selling these "firearms" to fellons:

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives recently determined that Polymer80's kits meet the definition of a firearm under the law, even if they are not yet assembled. Based on that determination, the kits are subject to federal gun laws, such as background checks on buyers, which "it appears that Polymer80 does not conduct," the affidavit states. In addition, the document states, "it appears that Polymer80 shipped items to individuals determined to be felons and otherwise prohibited from purchasing or possessing firearms."

The ATF purchased multiple kits from the company's website, and an agent used one to build a functioning firearm in about three hours, according to the affidavit. A confidential informant working with the agency — a convicted felon with past experience with guns — was able to so in 21 minutes, the document states.
Following that scenario, a senior ATF agent determined that the kits fit the definition of a firearm which is described, in part, as a weapon "which will or is designed or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive."

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/11/us/atf-raid-ghost-gun-manufacturer-invs/index.html

 

[teratos]

I'm not sure where you're getting the tax angle from. A CNN article on the raid claimed it's because the ATF determined the build kits were actually firearms. And that Polymer80 was selling these "firearms" to felons

“ATF determined...”

I wonder what kind of genius woke in the middle of the night with this Eureka! moment. This is why ATF is so dangerous. They say one thing, a P80 frame is not a firearm, a bump stock is not a machine gun....then years later change their mind and you are a felon.

 

[Slackdaddy]

You could not be MORE correct.
Felons are one of the most useful tools of the left.
The left purposefully does not lock them up for 2 major reasons.
They commit additional crimes and give the left justification to enact more legislation to control the "law abiding" population.
They (and there extended family) are a major voting base of the left.

I believe the reason for the heat is the two Los Angeles Police officers shot in their car this past summer were shot by a felon with a poly 80 build. Criminals are once again ruining it for all of us.

 

[Slackdaddy]

A non issue,
an 80% is a hunk of plastic/metal, you can buy a case of 100 if you please, just as you can buy 100 2x4s at Lowes.

So you bought 2 poly80 frames 2 years ago.
you suck at power tools and screwed them up while drilling,, threw them out and decided to just purchase a handgun via a FFL

.....and that right there is yet another example of why you should only buy 80% with cash.

 

[rbird7282]

As Trump said (w.r.t. red flag laws): Take the firearms first and then go to court.

https://youtu.be/yxgybgEKHHI?t=35

People can keep playing this clip but it’s meaningless. He didn’t do ANYTHING regarding this. No decree, no law, nothing. You want to bitch about red flag laws, bitch to your state.


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[rbird7282]

I just went to look at my P80 Festive Decorative Door Knockers collection, and looks like they were all dissolved into slag by the tragic Bourbon Spill incident of 2020.

FWIW: don't forget that Lone Wolf now has their own "Freedom Wolf" G19-ish 80% frame. Slightly different process, I understand, but same concept. Have some on backorder to replace my lost Polymer 80 Festive Decorative Door Knockers, and will report back on quality/process when possible.

Wait, wait, wait, bourbon spill? Now THAT is a tragedy!


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[JTH20]

“ATF determined...”

I wonder what kind of genius woke in the middle of the night with this Eureka! moment. This is why ATF is so dangerous. They say one thing, a P80 frame is not a firearm, a bump stock is not a machine gun....then years later change their mind and you are a felon.

This seems to be a closed door decision as well, which is very concerning. Not to mention it completly contradicts past decisions.

It's like they're trying the same logic behind the barrel ban, IE the barrel is somehow equall to a machine gun receiver, except domestically.

 

[rbird7282]

The ATF is saying P80's kits which are an 80% frame and a complete parts kit in a single box constitute a handgun under 922a29:

(29)The term “handgun” means—
(A)a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
(B)any combination of parts from which a firearm described in subparagraph (A) can be assembled.

If ATF's interpretation stands, P80 owes taxes for every such 80% + complete parts kit sold.

Except that under 29(b), it can’t be assembled into a functioning firearm without machine work by the owner


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[rbird7282]

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/12/11/polymer80-kits/
Apparently the atf IS doing door to door confiscation. Hopefully this is a line in the sand for some people and they just say no.

Not ready to believe that yet as that’s the only place I’ve seen that’s reporting tgat


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[randomuser]

Infringements occur because they send men with guns to enforce their wishes despite the law. Also, they bend and change the law without the consent of the governed. They don't represent us, they represent their interests. Imo if you are arrested for buying a full build kit you were not in fact arrested but kidnapped. They change and interpret the laws at their discretion to suit their current agenda. Change my mind.


Ps. "The courts will save us". What a joke of a saying that's proven to be false over and over.


Pss. The atf hired a felon to buy some parts to manufacture a warrant to take property. <<<Facts

 

[Tungsten]

A non issue,
an 80% is a hunk of plastic/metal, you can buy a case of 100 if you please, just as you can buy 100 2x4s at Lowes.

So you bought 2 poly80 frames 2 years ago.
you suck at power tools and screwed them up while drilling,, threw them out and decided to just purchase a handgun via a FFL

Yes, or you could have gotten tired of them and sold them at a gun show... or any of a 100 different ways you reasonably got rid of them.

However, by paying in cash in the first place, you eliminate the possibility of people showing up at your door, confiscating your property, and then having to spend $1000s trying to convince a judge to believe you.

 

[LeadSled1]

This is just a lead in to the Biden administration making ordering any gun parts online illegal.

 

[kstone803]

There's folks on Reddit stating they've been called or had the ATF at their house already. Looks like they got the records from P80 and didn't waste any time. This is gonna get ugly.

 

[delaware_export]

Knocking on doors to confiscate the kits

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/12/11/polymer80-kits/

 

[Bertfish]

There's folks on Reddit stating they've been called or had the ATF at their house already. Looks like they got the records from P80 and didn't waste any time. This is gonna get ugly.

And their proper answer should be that they disposed of them and that's that. ATF should not be cooperated with in their abuse.